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TGIF - Adventures in Democracy

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Posted 12:36am 26/07/08 by:
89 Comments | 0 Faves

Last night I was given the opportunity to bring up the issue of the R rating and government censorship of video games on the ABC television program "Q&A". I was led to believe my question would be approached in a serious and intelligent manner, and that an important issue would be raised in a very public forum.

You can watch what happened on youtube below - remember that youtube videos do count towards your bandwidth if that's a concern for you. Thanks to YouTube user nocensorshipaus for recording the video.

As you can see, what happened was far from a serious discussion on the merits of an R Rating for video games and government censorship. Instead, at large, the panelists were led into a discussion of violent video games and, due to archaic views of the average gamer, the discussion primarily devolved into the same "protect the children" commentary the public has heard for years.

Fortunately, what occurred on the show only served to highlight the exact issue at hand. The problem wasn't the question and it wasn't the way host Tony Jones turned from a discussion about R ratings and censorship into a discussion about video game violence in less than 10 words. It was a problem of the public's general ignorance of video games in general and how little awareness there is of the issue.

Due to the format of the show it was nigh on impossible for me to refute even the more ludicrous and fantastic claims (Avatar: the rape game by Barnaby Joyce was particularly hard to keep quiet about) meaning the show simply continued to propagate the same antiquated idea already present in the general media about video games.

The fact of the matter is, politicians and CEO's are humans as well. They are capable of ignorance, and they are more than capable of acting on that ignorance. That's why I think as gamers in Australia we need to stop focusing our attention on the one person who is stopping this legislation from going through - Attorney General Michael Atkinson - and instead focus on making the general public aware that video games are for everyone, and that as it stands Australia is the only developed democratic nation in the world without an R Rating for video games.

We have to make them aware that any time they play a game - be it on any of the handheld or home consoles, their mobile phones or PC - they are engaging in a pastime that hundreds of thousands of people enjoy and one the government actively censors.

We have to make the general public aware that an R Rating for video games is not just good for adult gamers - it's good for younger gamers as well. Accurate ratings systems actually help parents make proper, informed choices about what they buy their children.

And we have to make them aware of the insane situation where they can walk into a store and purchase the movie Reservoir Dogs on DVD - an R Rated film - but they could not walk into a store and purchase the video game of the same name, despite both games sharing similar adult themes.

The question is - how do we do this? How do we make the general public aware?

There's no easy answer. There's never an easy answer. It starts with us. It starts with gamers asking themselves - how far do we want to go? How far will we go to make people aware? Internet petitions aren't far enough - not even close (What a strange sentence). Writing letters to AG Michael Atkinson won�t work because the man won�t listen to gamers � but he�ll listen to general public (maybe).

So what gamers really need is to do is make this issue as public as possible. We might need to look foolish in public. I don�t have the answers, but I do have ideas. We can start small, by writing to every news show in the country. The more of us that write, the more interest there will be in the issue � as long as we are mature and articulate about the issues at hand. We can tell our friends and family about the situation, and tell them to pass it along. We can picket outside Sunrise to get awareness into people�s early morning routine.

These aren�t amazing ideas � they might even be bad ideas - but we have to start somewhere. Everyone must have ideas � share them. If you hate my ideas - tell me why. The only way anything is going to change is if we do something. I�m willing to action and participate in any reasonable idea you come up with. I�ll help. I�ll go as far as I need to make this happen � surely you can too.

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Comments on this Article

Fri 25 Jul 08, 7:49pm

alex
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 7:49pm

ga is gonna allow embedded youtube in posts now.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:08pm

Displaced
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:08pm

well done man :D thumbs up
and they left u hanging with your hand up nawww poor joab

anyway back on topic:
all their rebuttals consisted of "my children would grow up to be murderers/rapists because of ____ game"

stores I've been to check for id when it comes to M15+ games and movies

The fact is you have to be a pretty slacking parent to allow your children purchase anything with an R rating..

its good how there were people seeing your side of things there. IT did show the panel wasn't 100% ignorant.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:04pm

Galatica
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:04pm

Well Done Joaby :)
Im 14 years old and I do believe we should have an R18+ rating. There are too many people in my year level at school going around and talking about GTA4 as if it is the best game in the world just cauz you can shoot an RPG into a crowd and watch em all run around covered in blood from the people that are killed. This surely if we had an R18+ rating, would have been R18+. Too many games are now piling up at MA15+ such as many FPSs because they are getting too real.
I do have MA15+ games because I have influenced my parents into buying them for me for Birthdays and the like. An R18+ rating would draw the line for me and tell me, Oh this is a game I shouldnt play. But if there was going to be an R18+ rating it would have to be inforced by the people selling the games to the underaged.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:36pm

maggis007
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:36pm

Congrats Joaby on publicly raising this issue! For all too long now the R18+ issue has been pushed to the side and ignored by BB, and I agree that we as Australians need to unite on this to get anything done about it! Perhaps GameArena could host a mass petition, open to all ages, to Michael Atkinson to force the public's view for a need for R18+ rating for video games!

I've only ever felt the need to import a game once, but if this R18+ rating doesn't come in in the near future, I'll then be forced to import Manhunt 2 for Wii from the Netherlands, which is the only country in the world where it remains unedited (when and if it releases there on the due date) and retailing for the PAL format!

Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:44pm

eMONKe
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:44pm

Well that was an exercise in futility. Do these monkey's even bother to do any research on a topic before other monkeys point a camera at them and say "The world needs you ignorant, misinformed, poorly argued opinions?" They could have got the same depth of conversation and understanding if they pulled random homeless people off the street. What's the point of the show? Just about every comment any one of the panel seemed to defy the reality of the topic. The person who asks the question (Joaby), wasn't even given an opportunity to respond to their comments. There wasn't any useful debate, not between the audience or within the panel - though the extremes to which they condemn mature entertainment differed in some places. It was pointless, in every which way.

Though I recognise what you were attempting do Joaby, and still - even now - have my support. I think they did more damage than good. It was a once sided discussion, and the real issue, the one you were there to discuss, was ignored completly in favour of ye ol' "I don't understand it, so let's fear it". Instead of becoming a champion for the right of mature aged gamers to play mature aged game, you became a study of a man who enjoys simulated violence.

Again, I support you going on the show, you had to try, but the results were not so good.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:47pm

deius
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 8:47pm

I have to agree with what's been said, that clip was nothing but frustrating.
I've never watched the show before so I don't know how well it does on other issues. Wasn't there one on SBS too?

In fairness to the show and presenters, you can't introduce a whole issue on a talk-forum. The idea of gaming censorship is ill suited because quite clearly nobody really knew about it. I guess it'd only work where extensive media coverage has already prepared everybody for most of the facts, like abortion etc.

Although I fully support the cause, a bunch of gamers ranting on forums won't change much. And the more insulting people get, the more bad rep our "side" will get. You can't have an intelligent debate, or try to have one anyway, if people resort to calling others ignorant.

It's just a pity we can't get the anti-censorship crowd and civil liberties groups to care. When a porn/arthouse movie was nearly banned a few years ago, there was a huge furore. Same thing with Bill Henson, when everybody with an arts degree came out in support of him. If only they supported the gaming cause.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:11pm

alex
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:11pm

Avatar: the rape game by Barnaby Joyce...

it'd be funny if it wasn't so serious. major tosser.

What about how they said something like

you'll get these games anyway (i assume they mean import or dl)

This was said a couple of times and i'm not sure what the flippin' point was.
What!? Do want to make gamers into criminals or something?

You'll get the game anyway... We know you'll just break the law, you adult gaming scum contributing nothing to society and making the streets unsafe for Barnaby Joyce's kids.

Or that's the impression i got.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:24pm

zebathin
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:24pm

Well ten points to Joaby for bringing it up - and even more for that awesome shirt XD

Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:24pm

Garth
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:24pm

Well done Joaby. representing the gamers of aus.
After watching the whole clip all i have taken away from it is that the people on the panel are really good at dodging well thought out questions that can open a new way of thinking that there not ready for.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:28pm

laz
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 9:28pm

i really think acting like fps-doug would have helped your chances better.

but nice job none the less.

Fri 25 Jul 08, 11:13pm

Admiral Thrawn
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 11:13pm

When are you getting an OBE, Joab? It must be about time- I'll ring up the Queen and sort things out. Seriously, good job for standing up for our rights (even if it was wasted on those nerf-herders). I thank thee, Sir Joaby!

Fri 25 Jul 08, 11:23pm

Gordonov
Posted: Fri 25 Jul 08, 11:23pm

I really think we should be asking the hard questions of ourselves as gamers, like: why do we want to play such hideously violent games? Also, how long do we play them for? These are the hard-hitting, relevant questions that need answering.

Bunch of idiots on that panel - it was blindingly obvious watching them that none of them had played anything beyond a game of minesweeper in their life - how can we expect such people to understand our perspective? It's like trying to convince a homophobe to build a gay bar next door to his house.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:07am

Trex
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:07am

Quite frankly the question 'why do you want to play these violent games' shouldn't of been answered. you were visibly thrown by it and a simple 'its not relevant to the question' would of been sufficient.

According to the Board's majority view, Fallout 3 has warranted the RC classification in accordance with item 1(a) of the computer games table of the National Classification Code, that is:

1. Computer games that:
(a) depict, express or otherwise deal with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime, cruelty, violence or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults to the extent that they should not be classified.

Also, the Guidelines for the Classification of Films and Computer Games also include, as a general rule:

Material that contains drug use and sexual violence related to incentives and rewards is Refused Classification.

Dont worry GA-ers, if u wanna see Fallout 3, we NEED to start stealing more cars! more drugs and sexual related violence! Rape! Murder! when standards of society drop then games will be let in!

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:17am

Joaby
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:17am

Thanks for your support guys, and I actually agree at large with almost everything everyone has said. FPS Doug would have been just as effective, and if i had known I was walking into a situation like that I simply would have refused.

Although I fully support the cause, a bunch of gamers ranting on forums won't change much. And the more insulting people get, the more bad rep our "side" will get. You can't have an intelligent debate, or try to have one anyway, if people resort to calling others ignorant.

Deius, I respect what your saying, but I wasn't being insulting. They are ignorant about the subject. I'm not saying they're any less of a person for not explicitly knowing everything about the games issue, I'm simply saying they are ignorant. Everyone is ignorant about things.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:40am

FearlessWatcher
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:40am

Joaby why didn't you beat the **** out of him? Seeing as you played violent video games as a child... :P

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:43am

TechNoBlue
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:43am

That is the problem, not that they are ignorant, but perhaps misinformed and have tainted views on said subject by people such as Jack Thompson. All they need is a little re-educating.

All documentaries I have seen have been an absolute failure. They have only negative things to say in regards to games and gaming culture, and none were produced from the perspective of Gamers themselves. Gordonov raises a brilliant question there. And so many more have been raised, especially parallels drawn between video games and films.

What about a doco made by gamers themselves, telling the story from there perspective. Getting it out there for the general public to view.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 2:06am

Displaced
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 2:06am

1. Computer games that:
(a) depict, express or otherwise deal with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime, cruelty, violence or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults to the extent that they should not be classified.

Also, the Guidelines for the Classification of Films and Computer Games also include, as a general rule:

Material that contains drug use and sexual violence related to incentives and rewards is Refused Classification.

i don't get it in tf2 you can burn people alive. inject people with your drugged syringe gun to slow them down before death.
you can dismember and Gib people instantly with rocket launches..
you unlock achievements for killing other players with a medical bone saw etc..

it deals with drug misuse and extreme violence. /murdering people why isn't it banned?
gta 3-4 deals with crime and drugs, why arn't they banned etc?

Sat 26 Jul 08, 7:29am

The1Wolf
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 7:29am

i think i have the answer. to show uninformed people some of the games that have passed OLFC on an MA15+ because we have no R18+. And to show the graphic nature, story/ lore and brutality of the games that are deemed to not require RC. this will either get a lot more games banned or to get us an R18+ and the games that have only just scraped MA15+ pushed up to an R18+ classification. if people knew what was passing and what wasnt and what their kids can pick up due to a rating too low i think they maybe more willing to have an R18+ rating to stop kids playing games like condemed that really should have a higher classification.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 10:55am

eskimo
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 10:55am

I think you phrased your question wrong joaby. What you asked was an open question about censorship, not a question about whether or not it was appropriate to make and sell games for an 18+ audience.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 10:57am

Joaby
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 10:57am

The question was edited by the producers before I said it.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:03am

eskimo
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:03am

HAHAHA so it really was a true adventure in democracy. I dunno how you could sit there so calmly with some of the things they said, it made me cringe!

/me goes back to watch vid again

Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:26am

greendoor
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:26am

i dont know what more we can do i have gotten responses from representitives for both state and federal Govs on this and for Mr A this is a religious ideal he will never give it up and the only real solution is to hit the government where it hurts and that is at the ballot box so a campaign will have to be mounted throughout the main stream media so this becomes an election issue.painting Mr A as a religious fanatic imposing his beleifs on the rest of Aus"Get moving your holding up the Australian war machine"

Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:42am

Trex
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:42am

so the old girl (who's NOT a censorship girl)believe's child porn is ok (bill hensen) in the name of art... but GTA turned "everybody into a car thieff"...?. Id like to see the EXACT report and statistics to be able to say that like its the truth. ill do a quick report for her. Ive got several friends who own GTA4, 8 in fact. None of them has killed anyone, stolen a car, or dealt drugs. I think if you expanded the base testing youd find similar results throughout the general public.

Then she basically goes onto championing piracy with 'they find one way or another to get these games'. What id like to know, and i might google this later, what EXACTLY does being the chief executive of the Australian Industry group ACTUALLY involve? Does her opinion matter more than some that plays games... shes a mother of several young children who didnt become car thieves after playing GTA. Well done, she must be very proud of herself.

Then the next panelist mentions psychologist's, Nick Xenophon, (Xenophobe meaning someone that hates foreigners or weird customs etc), where every study (and you can google several from various games new sites, even australian) have come to the conclusion THERE IS NO conclusive evidence. What he says is that there is. he basically lies his face off on national tv, whether attributed to ignorance or stupidity or lies is irrelevant, he's one independent (FOR SA, the most conservative state) that i would never feel comfortable voting for.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:55am

Sinecure
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:55am

Another bunch of old people talking about **** they know aboslutely nothing about?

Personally I can just spend 10 minutes with my parents for my fill of that.

There opinions and questions will be focused to suit there main audience, middle aged people that know **** all about nothing especially computers/games.

The whole issue of there being no R rates games is selective censorship. Why is one form of media censored and others allowed to be classified when there is no real difference between the two?

Surely if one form is dangerous to people then the rest must be as well?

Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:52am

Beaverkilla or Luigi
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 11:52am

We need to stop talking about it an do stuff in the real world. Joaby - get on more shows, the more the better. All the rest of you, start writing and calling. This is a freedom of speech issue. The Australian Constitution* clearly states that we have freedom of speech.

People will get the games anyway, torrenting makes up 1/3rd of the worlds bandwidth. Maybe if they're censored parents might ask .... What's that game? Where'd you get it? What's it rated?

People should have a right to choose (if they're over 18 & intelligent enough to string a sentence together) what they do, as long as it doesn't impact on the lives of others. I know people who play GTA4 .... onna my best mates just started playing it. She kills people in the game. Like we all do, and at the end of the day shes still a normal person.

The Government/people of Australia need to wake up, NOT ALL GAMES ARE VIOLENT. NOT ALL GAMERS ARE KILLERS. The only way to achieve this is to talk to people, and get the word out to as many people as possible.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:04pm

Kael2
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:04pm

there is but one solution: cleanse the ignorant from the face of the planet, hitler style

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:07pm

WaLLy3K
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:07pm

It's a case of "Why should there be two sets of standards for video games and movies?" which doesn't revolve around the fact that you "take control and immerse yourself in the experience" because if some people are going to go out and do stupid things then it's nothing a movie wasn't going to eventually do anyway since there's either something wrong in their head (Read: Schizophrenia) or they weren't brought up to know right from wrong.

The ratings system up to MA15+ is there as a guide for parents to say what the game has. Anything beyond that should be the same for all "media" and that is to treat it like alcohol where it CAN NOT be supplied to a minor as it's obviously bad for a kid that is still learning right from wrong (Yes, even 16 year olds because I don't think you truly start to grow up until you're 20). I mean hell, you don't want your young impressionable child to see the latest SAW movie but if you want to watch it who's to say what some other person (Read: Government) has control over what I can and can not do that's bound within social law?

There shouldn't be a difference between the two. Most people will agree that the average person who plays games (Best to refrain from the use of the word gamer) is 25~35 which means that it should be treated the same as movies. Parents need to know that MA 15+ is getting pretty bad and that R rated games are completely unsuitable for play/watch because of whatever reason (Graphic content, etc). While there should be limits such as not allowing snuff films (Read: Accurate depictations of what Manhunt almost achieved) reach our shores, we should still be able to have the freedom to do and say what we want.

I could probably go on but I better not. :P

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:45pm

Insot
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:45pm

There is almost always a precursor to violence, mainly things like domination and unacceptance by one person or a group of another and of course having something someone else wants and using force to get it. I probably won't buy a game that is ridiculously excessive with violence, but i do think Fallout 3 deserves a rating comparable with other AAA games in its category.

There's no easy answer. There's never an easy answer.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:48pm

Trex
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 12:48pm

Wally3k not all schizophrenic's are murderous rapists. Both my girlfriend and I have schizophrenia and are completely average people. Ive played violent video games and watched violent movies all my life and I have NEVER done anything violent or aggressive or anything whilst medicated. You raise a whole lot of issues in that line without any relevance to video games.

But yes, when people refer to those that are easily led on by what they see, its a mask for schizophrenia fear. Im mord fearful of those without an understanding of schizophrenia than those that play violent video games.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 1:01pm

WaLLy3K
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 1:01pm

I don't mention all, but schizophrenia means that you (The person who suffers the illness) has a chemical imbalance in their head and typically means they're more impressionable which can lead to doing "stupid" stuff that you hear about on the news. I'm not saying that all people with that illness will go do that thing (I'll chalk that up to chaos theory) but it means it's far more likely to happen as opposed to someone who was brought up correctly, knows right from wrong and is perfectly healthy. People like this aren't about to play out the RL counterpart to GTA.

I don't treat it lightly because I have a family member with it so I know what it's like. What I'm bringing up though is the point between different media - video games and just movies. The line shouldn't be drawn at "interactive experience", but rather at the point where it's completely out of all human decency and morals and let people who are OLD enough to make the decision to play everything else, their decision instead of the government for the country that we live in.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 2:11pm

K-007
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 2:11pm

First off...nice shirt haha :D. I want one ><.

Second off, good points brought up, the panel most didn't even realize why the game was banned, not due to the violence but the use of drugs. There are far worse things are on TV/Movies, limbs flying, drug use, sex, alcohol, gambling.

& The question "'why do you want to play these violent games' ", should have just replied

"Well why do people go to the movies to watch people get blown up, drug use, alcohol, gambling, sex, mutilation/etc, not to mention most of this is on primetime TV as well."

I loved what the guy near the end brought up about the gambling which is a a drug that is promoted and OK by the government because it brings them HUGE $$$

I hope the creators of Fallout don't change anything in the game just to bend there ass over to the Australian rating system. Like that woman said...people will get the game anyway.

This panel seems as clueless as the woman who was on FOX bashing Mass Effect for having 'sex' with a alien.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 2:27pm

Ragemachine
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 2:27pm

i hate tony jones with a passion, such a word manipulating douche bag.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 3:18pm

hotcakes
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 3:18pm

Definately a worthwhile cause Joaby, but I think some form of organisation is required - people on their own has not been working thus far.

Maybe you could use your almighty GameArena powers to get Telstra to set up some form of nowweareplaying.com propaganda site? =]

Sat 26 Jul 08, 4:06pm

eMONKe
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 4:06pm

Definately a worthwhile cause Joaby, but I think some form of organisation is required - people on their own has not been working thus far.

Maybe you could use your almighty GameArena powers to get Telstra to set up some form of nowweareplaying.com propaganda site? =]

I'd suggest that if there is any propaganda it shouldn't be so direct. The type of people you are trying to reach live in their own bubble, and the only way to reach them is to make sure our bubble intersects with theirs. Expand the issue enough so it might be seen in something like 'Womans Weekly', and you will see greater coverage. A propaganda campaign along the lines of "You're a parent too" which broadly talks about parent's deferring responsibility to a nanny government, but use mature rated computer games as a major key point.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 5:14pm

AnOrC
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 5:14pm

Indeed K-007. Truly hilarious how that "professional" woman got totally ripped on Amazon, and all her books got like 0 star ratings, classic stuff.

But yea. I'm truly sick of all the talk about GTA and how violent games breeds violence. To be honest you would have to be pretty retarded to not able to tell reality to simulation. In the end it's a video game. An entertainment source. Despite video games being ridiculously popular and constantly breaking entertainment records, it is still by far under-pressed and under-funded compared to the film industry.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:11pm

imtoast
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:11pm

Looks like i'll get you that keg in a years time. I'm guessing thats when we might get the R18.

Plus your sexy :D

Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:19pm

Displaced
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:19pm

Emonke knows the score. I'm pretty sure from the way he responds hes got some form of skill in enlightening close minded people.

a worthy member to have on these message boards.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:22pm

Joaby
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:22pm

Definately a worthwhile cause Joaby, but I think some form of organisation is required - people on their own has not been working thus far.

Maybe you could use your almighty GameArena powers to get Telstra to set up some form of nowweareplaying.com propaganda site? =]
I'd suggest that if there is any propaganda it shouldn't be so direct. The type of people you are trying to reach live in their own bubble, and the only way to reach them is to make sure our bubble intersects with theirs. Expand the issue enough so it might be seen in something like 'Womans Weekly', and you will see greater coverage. A propaganda campaign along the lines of "You're a parent too" which broadly talks about parent's deferring responsibility to a nanny government, but use mature rated computer games as a major key point.

This is great. This is a fantastic idea, and a great place to aim for. I don't think a propaganda machine would work to our advantage the way we'd like as we'd still have the issue of really only getting an audience which already knows - the internet savvy.

But I love the idea of a broadened campaign like eMONKe said. It's something I wanted to talk about on the show but wasn't able to. R ratings help protect children by giving parents a clearer choice.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:42pm

K-007
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 6:42pm

Regardless of the rating, weather the game is rated G or R100+...people will get it from the Internet/friends/etc, if parents are worried about getting games for there children then look at the rating and buy whats appropriate for your kids, and it should be upto the parents to monitor what there kids play on there computer.

Just because this game is banned dosen't mean parents should relax if they don't want there kids playing it.

Anyone in the right mind should know the difference between reality and imagination, if they don't then they shouldn't even be having access to it.

I think what i am mumbling is that, there should be a R18 for games, and it should be upto the parents to monitor what there kids play. Let those who know the difference between a game and reality freaking enjoy, don't punish them because we have lazy parents out there.

I played games when i was what...maybe 7-8, i remember playing mortal kombat, doom/duke/etc...do you see me running around going FATALITY!!! and killing people...

Sat 26 Jul 08, 7:17pm

WaLLy3K
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 7:17pm

It doesn't matter how a child obtains a game, it's up to the parents to regulate what they can and can't do.

Hell, all the major consoles and even Vista (*smirk*) has methods that allow an authorised person deny access to specific classifications which is a step in the right direction - it's things like this that the "family conscious" need to be aware of.

Sat 26 Jul 08, 10:23pm

Galatica
Posted: Sat 26 Jul 08, 10:23pm

I'd think it would be quite smart for an Australian video game company or just a Aussie based gaming website (such as this one) to start up a campaign/petition for the R18+ rating. These bloody politicians and so called 'experts' have such a biased opinion to gaming. Games such as Fallout 3 that have had previous versions of the game released should fall under an R18+ rating. But games that have a mass amount of blood & gore violence as I understand it should be banned.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 12:41am

K-007
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 12:41am

Well..Fallout 1/2 wasn't exactly rating friendly either...those games were fine though..I think they had more mutilation/drug and even sex..lesbian too...

Sun 27 Jul 08, 1:11am

Tetsu
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 1:11am

Well..Fallout 1/2 wasn't exactly rating friendly either...those games were fine though..I think they had more mutilation/drug and even sex..lesbian too...

Different time though. Video Games weren't such a massive political bombshell back then as far as I know.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 3:48am

eMONKe
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 3:48am

Games such as Fallout 3 that have had previous versions of the game released should fall under an R18+ rating. But games that have a mass amount of blood & gore violence as I understand it should be banned.

You can't really pick and choose like that though. If the Saw films exist so the masses can watch people get mutilated/tortured and enjoy it (seriously WTF!), I really don't see why any amount of violence in a game should be banned. As long as it has a rating which reflects the age group it's targeted towards.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 5:56am

EvoV
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 5:56am

i used to have a friend whose younger brother had autism. this is one of the biggest examples of people who dont know right from wrong. they live in their own little coocoon and are extremely impressionable by movies//games etc. he would get in trouble all the time at school for physcially attacking other kids acting out something he had seen/played the previous day. he was 12 at the time i think. problem is there are plenty of mediums of violence that he would copy even rated G.

@ person who asked about why TF2 wasnt banned because of drugs..

if you read what you posted it mentions rewarding druggy behaviour and making it seem like a good thing. if a game has you/someone else take drugs and they have a negative impact (gta has drug addicts in all kinds of shite, tf2 drugs are in a weapon form) then its ok. if they have you pump yourself full of drugs which make everything great its encouraging it... its the context that makes the difference

Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:35am

eMONKe
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:35am

i used to have a friend whose younger brother had autism. this is one of the biggest examples of people who dont know right from wrong. they live in their own little coocoon and are extremely impressionable by movies//games etc. he would get in trouble all the time at school for physcially attacking other kids acting out something he had seen/played the previous day. he was 12 at the time i think. problem is there are plenty of mediums of violence that he would copy even rated G.

We should probably ban everything but playschool to make sure the younger autistic brother of a once-upon-a-time friend from your anecdotal story doesn't imitate anything harmful. You should also think about padding every surface in your home, and petition your local government to pad every surface in your neighbourhood to ensure epileptic people don't hurt themselves on any hard surfaces or sharp corners.

@ person who asked about why TF2 wasnt banned because of drugs..

if you read what you posted it mentions rewarding druggy behaviour and making it seem like a good thing. if a game has you/someone else take drugs and they have a negative impact (gta has drug addicts in all kinds of shite, tf2 drugs are in a weapon form) then its ok. if they have you pump yourself full of drugs which make everything great its encouraging it... its the context that makes the difference

Drug use in a game wouldn't encourage drug use any more than drug use in a movie. Why is drug use still in movies? Oh yeah, because we are goddamn adults, viewing adult themes, in a movie tailored specifically for adults. It's no different for computer games. I'm an adult, and I demand my right (and every other adults) to be treated like one.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:35am

Fatty
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:35am

You should also think about padding every surface in your home, and petition your local government to pad every surface in your neighbourhood to ensure epileptic people don't hurt themselves on any hard surfaces or sharp corners.

My epileptic brother used to have fits all the time from playing his SNES. We just threw him in the bath with some detergent and dirty socks.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:42am

eMONKe
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:42am

You should also think about padding every surface in your home, and petition your local government to pad every surface in your neighbourhood to ensure epileptic people don't hurt themselves on any hard surfaces or sharp corners.
My epileptic brother used to have fits all the time from playing his SNES. We just threw him in the bath with some detergent and dirty socks.

That's retarded. You're meant to use Meths.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:32am

teasa94
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:32am

So the governments argument is that people will be influenced by the themes in a game that has the rating of R18+. No game that i have played has influenced my way of life in any way. If having an R18+ game that has the use of drugs in it, so be it. The people who will be playing that game will be over 18 years of age and have the intellectual to not be influenced by these games. Also, no parent is dumb enough to give a child under of the age of, lets say, 16 a R18+ game.

So i don't see why the goverment wouldn't have an R18+ rating. Because of having no R18+ rating means that some games that should be R rated get away with an MA rating, and includes themes innapropriate for children. So that game goes to a younger audiance which are able to be influenced by things inside that game. So, why is there no R18+ rating then?

I hate politics.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 10:16am

WaLLy3K
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 10:16am

Quote: teasa94
Also, no parent is dumb enough to give a child under of the age of, lets say, 16 a R18+ game.

No offence, but you've obviously never worked a day of retail in your life if you honestly believe that.

I've seen eight year olds try and purchase GTA4 for the 360, us deny them only to have the parent come up to us and have a go at us for not letting them buy it even though we explain we legally can't, (and why!) they still don't understand and buy it anyway for them. It's ridiculous.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 11:34am

Allighieri
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 11:34am

if you read what you posted it mentions rewarding druggy behaviour and making it seem like a good thing. if a game has you/someone else take drugs and they have a negative impact (gta has drug addicts in all kinds of shite, tf2 drugs are in a weapon form) then its ok. if they have you pump yourself full of drugs which make everything great its encouraging it... its the context that makes the difference

Then please explain why Knights of the Old Republic was not banned - it featured adrenals which, when injected, would give you bonuses to your abilities/ heal you etc.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 11:50am

WaLLy3K
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 11:50am

I figure it's because the OFLC started cracking down on games around early 06. I only say that because that's around the time the rating labels turned from the old square MA15+ box to the new coloured ones with advice on what the game has in "plain English".

Sun 27 Jul 08, 12:49pm

HDogg
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 12:49pm

So according to the panel, violent games breed violent people. Running with that logic, I'm going to be the next Michael Schumacher.

Who wants my autograph now, before I can charge for it?

Sun 27 Jul 08, 1:09pm

Allighieri
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 1:09pm

I figure it's because the OFLC started cracking down on games around early 06. I only say that because that's around the time the rating labels turned from the old square MA15+ box to the new coloured ones with advice on what the game has in "plain English".

Actually it's more likely because the drug in Fallout 3 is directly referred to as morphine, which is of course a real drug, and any suggestion of all bonuses with no side effects could be taken more seriously than a made up drug.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 1:49pm

diskuss
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 1:49pm

joaaby what have you done my boy...

we want to have a R 18 system for games SOOONER rather then LAATTTERR. you should of rehearsed infront of a mirror or spoken to other gaming site journos like internode before u went on, why u ask?

In ur summary u have written "The problem wasn't the question and it wasn't the way host Tony Jones turned from a discussion about R ratings and censorship into a discussion about video game violence in less than 10 words" but yet he the host tony jones didnt... you did even know im not a big Fallout fan, injecting drugs then going off to kill people.. (not giant bugs, mutated people, monsters) is incorrect based on wat ive heard about the game itself and screenshots ive seen of the game but wen he asked u "Is that correct?" you said yes. from then on in u made all those hardcore games like FO3 GTA look like the devils work himself and have set R+18 system back 2 years in my opinion.

even though u were doing the right thing by bringing up the question to those uneducated nubs, you choked.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:09pm

Saber
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:09pm

joaby mate you got snapped buddy, you needed to have a prep sheet or something to challenge their hardcore answers

Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:16pm

Allighieri
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:16pm

joaby mate you got snapped buddy, you needed to have a prep sheet or something to challenge their hardcore answers

He barely got a chance as is. Would have been very little point making up set responses as he didn't really get a chance to respond.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:23pm

diskuss
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:23pm

If he was really passionaite about an R+18 system he woulda said something not keep his hand up like a school kid, Politicans can weave n dice their way through anythinng (besides illegal stuff :P) you have to be clear on what your saying and be prepared for ZINGERS cause they have plenty and will not hold punchers.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:32pm

diskuss
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 2:32pm

http://games.internode.on.net/content.php?mode=news&id=3510

^ sums everything up.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 3:07pm

tele-fragd
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 3:07pm

If he was really passionaite about an R+18 system he woulda said something not keep his hand up like a school kid

He would have, but the show doesn't allow you to just butt in. If you don't follow the rules on the show, they won't allow you to speak.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 4:46pm

Allighieri
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 4:46pm

If he was really passionaite about an R+18 system he woulda said something not keep his hand up like a school kid
He would have, but the show doesn't allow you to just butt in. If you don't follow the rules on the show, they won't allow you to speak.

As Joaby himself put it,

Because they said before the show if you yell out or butt in from the audience they will not put the camera back on you because "Democracy is not about who has the loudest voice" which makes me wonder how Barnaby Joyce has any power whatsoever.

http://www.gamearena.com.au/forums/536/thread.php/4749751?p=2

Sun 27 Jul 08, 3:33pm

Sinecure
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 3:33pm

All this protect the child hysteria is such bullshit anyways.

If you make it through your child hood without getting raped/beaten your doing just fine.

It's a parental responsibility to monitor what their child see's and does not see.

The rest of us adults shouldn't be censored based on what some little **** tard might or might not get his grubby hands on.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 4:08pm

ConsofT
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 4:08pm

I'm 15 years of age.
I have banned video games on my computer.

Now if a 15 year old can get their hands on a banned computer game, then i really dont' see any point in banning them, resulting in matured adults being disappointed and having to perform tasks in more ethically wrong ways to obtain the game that they have every right to own.

Just bring the ******* R18+ system in Australia, you're only causing problems by not.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 5:58pm

Lonely Soldier
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 5:58pm

Good to raise it, but the point is not about censorship in general. It should be based on the inconsistency between film and game classifications - no R for games.

The old hag raising GTA IV as an instigator of car-theft is just typical tabloid garbage.

Tony, who is usually very well-informed, was unfortunately a part in this discussion's failure "no rating system for games"?

The panel, sadly, seemed basically uninformed and little better could be excpected from them. Barnaby's idea that people in his street were going around raping people virtually was pretty bizarre.

The second audience member to speak had a much better point which raised the key inconsistency quite well - the right to choose. Nick Xenophon had a half-decent response, too - at least he raised the need to consider risk.

ConsofT - You are, you realise, not impressing anyone with your view. Your parents are technically criminals for allowing you to play those games and you are complicit in crime. The fact that one person can access these games despite them being banned doesn't mean they should scrap all bans - lets legalise murder, while we're at it: people get away with that after all.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:01pm

WaLLy3K
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:01pm

Quote: Allighieri
Actually it's more likely because the drug in Fallout 3 is directly referred to as morphine, which is of course a real drug, and any suggestion of all bonuses with no side effects could be taken more seriously than a made up drug.

Your comment was "Why was <insert old game here> not banned and this was", hence my response which has nothing to do with F3.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:46pm

Alkie
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:46pm

Ok, aside from all the things already discussed about how awfully this went.

Why did they, and half the audience - laugh at the loose description of fallout 3?
Perhaps because its far-fetched, and ridiculously unrealistic - and the common person knows these kinds of things don't "turn everyone into car thieves" or make you rape people.

Its just so frustrating that they can't just slap in a R18+ rating.
Whats the harm of it.
If anything it would help these glorious polictal heroes save our children from ALL becoming rapists and drug users.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:55pm

Allighieri
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 6:55pm

Quote: Allighieri
Actually it's more likely because the drug in Fallout 3 is directly referred to as morphine, which is of course a real drug, and any suggestion of all bonuses with no side effects could be taken more seriously than a made up drug.
Your comment was "Why was <insert old game here> not banned and this was", hence my response which has nothing to do with F3.

I understand, I wasn't so much correcting you (despite my post beginning with "Actually") as pointing out that there are plenty of other games which institute fictional drugs as purely beneficial aspects of the game (with apt justfication in my belief; why can't they create a drug which does nothing but help you, but wears off after time?), which have not been banned.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 8:17pm

hotcakes
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 8:17pm

Whats the harm of it.
If anything it would help these glorious polictal heroes save our children from ALL becoming rapists and drug users.

It's the misconception that banning games somehow stops the game getting into people's hands. Less copies in the country = less risk. They don't take into account the fact that anyone can just download it (or worse a copy of it) if they wanted to.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:08pm

Sachiel
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:08pm

great work, joabs.
it was interesting, and possibly disturbing at the level of debate that occurred. With the first man saying 'you'll get it anyway' read: we know you'll just steal it when it's banned so why cry about it? and then the next guy from the right hand side brining up another invaluable point:

"we must have some standards, otherwise we'd have had snuff movies and this 'avatar' thing i've heard of that lets you rape people in greater abundance" or something to that effect.

Obviously, those who frequent these forums will be able to see straight away that one is the broadcasting of a vicious foul and 100%unnacceptable (read criminal) act and the other is a simulated environment that though it may contain blood violence sexual references and drug use/abuse, it will generally explicitly set out a moral code which dictates the pro's and con's of any decision made that may be morally ambiguous or worse.

The player is generally made aware that though administering drug X will give a increase in attributes A-C it will also produce a chance of addiction and a detriment to the value of attributes Y + Z. As with violence, it is understood that some games are just horribly violent, such as DOOM and SOF. These games are generally so removed from reality that the average citizen of sane and rational mind would have no problem dealing with the game if they should so CHOOSE. The games where lines are blurred generally (once again) explicitly suggest that a certain gameplay should be followed (morally right) as this will create the easiest gaming experience (without being shunned from society and trade, having to evade the police, and general enjoyment of the game).

true enough, the opposition time and time again brings up the archaic fallback of 'bad for kids, you'll be a murdere rapist psychopath who will listen to marolyn manson and watching southpark whilst you cut up your hookers' but, as has been stated, our community does not bring up the evidance. They don't understand us? make them. We must come half way, and then further, because the general public has shown consitently that they are more than disinterested in investigating any form of videogaming save for the 20seconds they spend in front of their childs console of choice, to tell them to switch it off and go to bed.

once again, specifics need to be addressed. Why can i watch a Rambo movie where he rips a man's throat out with his hands, where he disembowels a general, where he calculatedly hunts down his own countrymen and kills them horribly? that i can loose sleep over cult horror flicks, that i can watch slashers and thrillers such as SAW or Psycho, that we permit movies where the allied soldier shoots a surrendering soldier without regard, but such an experience cannot be replicated in an explicitly simulated form where the moral guidelines are set out, and penalties are glaringly apparant, which stands in direct contrast to similar discourses of film media?

The host, though somewhat biased, did bring up the point that the average gamer is 'over 30'. This was breezed over by the panel. It does therefore seem that the host is merely a conduit between the panel and popular opinion. I think that this point must be stressed in the argument for an R18+ inclusion.
The fact that grown adults, whom have a pre-defined moral standpoint (however varied they may be from one another) are able to make a sound and informed choice, due to the maturity and their ABILITY to research the product in question.
The 'protect the kiddies and/or it will infect our society and whip them into a flurry of blood and violence induced mass rape' arguments do not stand here.

If you are an adult, and you, upon the finishing of a computer game are compelled to rape pillage and murder, society should have a look at its self. Unfortunately, 9/10 people who finish Crysis are filled with a violence induced rape impulse, and rightly so.
But in all seriousness, the introduction of an 18 restricted class cannot possibly negatively effect the population if it is enforced (ie: it's not a token 'restricted' class.

and before we get the whole "but it would bring in excessive violence and nudity games :'(" arguments: supply and demand. If such a market is opened up due to the creation of an R18, then let it come. I know i won't be buying the 'snuff' games. And if you aren't either, then what is the problem? Firstly, we need evidence to evaluate whether it has potential to psychologically steer people towards violence, and dually, to evaluate whether the demand for ultra-violent videogames warrants a sustainable market, which in turn negates the argument that it's turning people towards violence because they already want it.

like i said, joabs you did great. But i also agree that you shouldn't have answered the 'why do you want to play this violent video game'. It is a personal question, and in any debate means that the other person is trying to get you on the back foot and shut down your argument. The only possible retort could have been to filp it back and say 'why would you watch a violent movie? any movie by stanley kubrick, tarrentino, read a book by stephen king or shakespeare, or poetry by Dante? but still, by flipping it around you get sidetracked which is not what you want to do :( so its a killer question.

Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:15pm

imtoast
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:15pm

^^^ That's bigger then my willy :l

Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:20pm

Sachiel
Posted: Sun 27 Jul 08, 9:20pm

C C C COMBOBREAKER?

Mon 28 Jul 08, 12:06am

MrMongoose
Posted: Mon 28 Jul 08, 12:06am

C'mon guys, they have a point. After playing GTA 4, I have spent the majority of my time stealing cars, rapping people and degrading myself to the level of a viking.

In fact, I'm posting this on a stolen computer who's owners I rapped and then run over repeatedly in their car that I too stole.

Well done Joaby for reaming composed under that, if I was in the same situation I would resort to name calling, I get to frustrated in those situations.

Personally, I am glad to have a level headed person such as yourself represent us.

JOABY FOR PM!!

Mon 28 Jul 08, 9:47pm

hotcakes
Posted: Mon 28 Jul 08, 9:47pm

In their defense, I -do- totally want to pee on someone and whack off their head with a shovel. Head soccer is way fun.

Mon 28 Jul 08, 10:34pm

slipoch
Posted: Mon 28 Jul 08, 10:34pm

I know I'll prolly get flamed for this first bit. But what the hell,

The guys you questioned in fact have nothing to do with the rating system at all, they have no influence on said system and for obvious reasons didn't know about the subject.

The fact that you as a journalist, associated with media, and you did not represent that fact at the start is a bit dodgy. (although I noticed it was referenced later by one of the panel.)

When the host described Fallout as a game where you come out and kill people, then take drugs so you can kill more people, he asked if that was correct, you said 'yes'. This is an extremely incorrect description of the game and would explain why the whole discussion moved into the area of violence.

Fallout is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, you can choose to kill or you can avoid it, you can also save people, the point is, it gives the player the choice, it isn't about the violence at all. The driving factor of this game is the storyline. By agreeing at the start you turned Fallout into Manhunt or Night-trap or the other crappy drivel that is solely driven by violence.

Fallout is also a black comedy, hence the ridiculous amounts of violence. (anyone else remember the Bloody Mess perk?)

Unfortunately because of this, their arguments are reinforced in the public eye and they believe even more strongly in their pre-conceived notions of what games are.

Now past that, one thing really caught my attention.
One of the stooges, sorry politicians, talked about listening to psychiatrists who have studied the area, well the current respected (respected by other psychologists that is) groups are actually finding that the average gamer is actually considerably LESS likely to initiate any form of violence.

I can't remember who in particular did the study, but it seemed reasonably well researched. (if someone knows, could u post below pls.)

What happened to the parentel responsibility of only allowing your children to watch/play material you believe is appropriate?

Mon 28 Jul 08, 11:09pm

Rade
Posted: Mon 28 Jul 08, 11:09pm

what is this parentel thing u speak of??

teenage voilence has gone up in years, not because u know they go out and get rocked off their tits on drugs/booze ASIFFF what are u retarded??!!?!

Its because they play voilent games like GTA Series, CS, WoW and even BEJEWELED(ill take a fistful off diamonds anyday bring it on u crazy gamer kids!!)

Tue 29 Jul 08, 12:56am

snowdweller
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 12:56am

Wow, gamers turning on eachother to get the same outcome... R18+ rating.

Come-on guys, i don't see you guys out there rallying for what we justly deserve do i? no. What i see is Joab doing it for us, yet we still find a way to just implode on forums and start inferiating peoples intelligence.

In Joab's article it states somewhere that we should get together and fight a common enemy (or to words of that effect)... Your doing the exact opposite, some people going so far as to TELL JOAB HOW TO DO IT...

**** OFF YOU UNGRATEFULL SCUM OF THE EARTH! you do it if your going to be like that. Im with Joab, and anyone else for that matter who is actually serious about this and getting together to get something done. You saw what happens when its just one of us VS a WHOLE panel of "experts" we end up looking like (as someone stated earlier) a no-hoper, jobless, waste of society, video game playing loser (not saying you are joaby, just relating to what someone said ealier)

So enough is enough guys, stop squabbiling over spilt milk... ITS BEEN SPILT FOREVER! its time to fucken clean it up but we can only do it if were together.

So please, all I ask is we stick to the task at hand and that is getting what we deserve as hard working, law abiding adults/citizens.

Tue 29 Jul 08, 11:38am

Rade
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 11:38am

Its true if australian gamers want a R+18 system they needa band together, but that is just simply not enough. BIG BUSINESS RULES THE WORLD, If gaming companies like Rockstar, Bertha n so forth lend a punch or 2 certainly things will get moving along faster.

Tue 29 Jul 08, 2:45pm

eMONKe
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 2:45pm

Its true if australian gamers want a R+18 system they needa band together, but that is just simply not enough. BIG BUSINESS RULES THE WORLD, If gaming companies like Rockstar, Bertha n so forth lend a punch or 2 certainly things will get moving along faster.

It's true that big business rules the world, but the computer game industry doesn't qualify as big business. Big Business refers to utility companies.

Tue 29 Jul 08, 4:53pm

Rade
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 4:53pm

You cant compare Rio Tinto and Rockstar because they are in 2 different fields of business. eg: utility and entertainment industry.

The general public wouldnt listen to a guy with a bad haircut and hasnt seen the sun in years or picketting outside sunrise, kosi would prolly bag the **** out of u all lorf. People only listen if its a guy in a Suit+tie

Tue 29 Jul 08, 5:23pm

Allighieri
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 5:23pm

You cant compare Rio Tinto and Rockstar because they are in 2 different fields of business. eg: utility and entertainment industry.

The general public wouldnt listen to a guy with a bad haircut and hasnt seen the sun in years or picketting outside sunrise, kosi would prolly bag the **** out of u all lorf. People only listen if its a guy in a Suit+tie

You managed to miss the point entirely. What he means is businesses only have an impact if they are genuinely big. Which no gaming companies are.

Tue 29 Jul 08, 5:36pm

Rade
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 5:36pm

lol multi-billion dollar industry is big business....

the music industry is behind gaming industry in wealth, am i correct?
they makes song about retarded **** they believe in eg; earth hour a good example.

Tue 29 Jul 08, 5:39pm

Allighieri
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 5:39pm

lol multi-billion dollar industry is big business....

the music industry is behind gaming industry in wealth, am i correct?
they makes song about retarded **** they believe in eg; earth hour a good example.

Money means very little here - If you're trying to influence people what you want are businesses which are 'big' in the public eye. And no gaming companies are.

Tue 29 Jul 08, 6:10pm

eMONKe
Posted: Tue 29 Jul 08, 6:10pm

lol multi-billion dollar industry is big business....

the music industry is behind gaming industry in wealth, am i correct?
they makes song about retarded **** they believe in eg; earth hour a good example.

Sure it's big, but what's big? To us an elephant is big, until you compare it to an oil tanker, then it becomes insignificant. The computer game industry is insignificant when you compare it to the corporations that deal in oil, electricity, water, grain, mining, smelting, construction and transport. These are the companies with political power, because they effectively run the economy and any financial mismanagement by any of these companies is sure to put a sweat on a politicians brow. In order to run a country politicians need to bargain and communicate with these giants in a huge tug of war between the corporate interests and the countries. These are the corporations known as "Big Business", and this what they mean by "Big Business rules the world". If the computer game industry blinked out, it might be a huge shame, but it's hardly big enough to have any real political power of any real sense.

Wed 30 Jul 08, 12:25pm

snowdweller
Posted: Wed 30 Jul 08, 12:25pm

lol... you guys are still going on about a subject that has no fucken meaningto what the article portrays ... utility companies? who the **** cares about those? isnt this a gaming website/forum?

HELLO?!? doesnt anyone else want R18+ like me or Joaby?

Wed 30 Jul 08, 2:11pm

eMONKe
Posted: Wed 30 Jul 08, 2:11pm

lol... you guys are still going on about a subject that has no fucken meaningto what the article portrays ... utility companies? who the **** cares about those? isnt this a gaming website/forum?

HELLO?!? doesnt anyone else want R18+ like me or Joaby?

I think you'd find that the discussion was relevant, and if you'd actually read the thread instead of waving your flag around as Joaby's one and greatest supporter, you'd also find that most people here are in agreeance with there being an R18+ rating for computer games and are appreciative of Joaby's efforts.

Tue 19 Aug 08, 1:44am

snowdweller
Posted: Tue 19 Aug 08, 1:44am

I can't quote properly, so here goes..

"read the thread instead of waving your flag around as Joaby's one and greatest supporter"

I HAVE read the thread AND am writing about it, supporting it, what ever you want to call it. But why on earth would i be "Joaby's one a greatest supporter"? (no offence joab) I dont know the guy from a bar of soap so the last thing i would be doing is enlarging his e-ego. I just want to play hardcore games that are R rated becuase i feel like i am entitled.

But back to my point..

"Sure it's big, but what's big? To us an elephant is big"

Where's the pro R18+ in that quote or the rest of your post for that matter..

Tue 19 Aug 08, 1:57am

BulletForce
Posted: Tue 19 Aug 08, 1:57am

what is this parentel thing u speak of??

teenage voilence has gone up in years, not because u know they go out and get rocked off their tits on drugs/booze ASIFFF what are u retarded??!!?!

Its because they play voilent games like GTA Series, CS, WoW and even BEJEWELED(ill take a fistful off diamonds anyday bring it on u crazy gamer kids!!)

Spot on rade, theres no doubt that those kids in America that went off and murdered someone after playing GTA were adversely effected from playing the game. Most people can play a game like GTA and walk away without killing someone, but there are folks out there who through reasons of poor mental health react 'differently' to such a violent game and often as a result end up killing someone.

This whole R18 thing censorship whining is pretty silly anyway, name me a game that is R18 that has not been complete crap. GTA has shown that its a fine game when given a few tweaks to make it MA 15, but I have yet to see or play an R18 game that has not been crap.

The average R18+ game gets in reviews 5/10 if its lucky. We aren't as Australians really missing out on anything worth playing by having this ban.

BTW nice avatar Rade, its good to see another Rossoneri fan on here :)

Fri 31 Dec 10, 9:12am

eoobao
Posted: Fri 31 Dec 10, 9:12am

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Pearl Ring http://www.pinkpearl.info/

Pink Pearl http://www.pinkpearl.info/

Wed 29 Jun 11, 7:21pm

huchunhuafanzhenfu
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 11, 7:21pm

<strong>Burberry Sale</strong> always lead the technical trend. Not only for its design gathered the essence of British custom craft, but also for the French high fashion design process and Italy immaculate manufacturing techniques. <strong>Burberry Sale Outlet</strong><strong>Burberry Sale Men</strong> and <strong>Burberry Bags Outlet Online</strong> are the most popular and best-selling sunglasses in our store this year. In addition, Since our <strong>Ray-ban Sunglasses</strong> establishment, Ray-Ban brand has been the world's best-selling sunglasses brand. Eternal design, concise design and high style, no doubt has become Ray-Ban brand important elements. The <strong>Burberry Sale</strong> sunglasses is new arrival in our shop. There are many amazing promotion activity in our sunglasses shop, just pick one, choose your favorite one!

Wed 29 Jun 11, 7:21pm

huchunhuafanzhenfu
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 11, 7:21pm

Fri 15 Jul 11, 11:40pm

Promotional Item
Posted: Fri 15 Jul 11, 11:40pm

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Fri 02 Mar 12, 6:30pm

bagtree
Posted: Fri 02 Mar 12, 6:30pm

We are wholesale Purse the manufacture of Handbag in China,we Women Handbags have been specialized in produceing handbag wholesale Gifts for many years,if you want to kown the more Men Bags information of the Handbag ,please look through our web site.

we are Men Hobo Bags in a position Women Bags to accept order to the customer�s Men Tote Bags samples,in the customer�s wholesale Wallet sample,

In order to give wholesale Backpacks you a gengral idea of various Hobo Bags kinds of the Handbag we are handling.we will sending you our latest catalogue for your reference if you required.

please let Messenger Bags us know immediately if you <strong>Wholesale handbags</strong> are interested in our products,we will send your Shoulder Bags our price list to you as soon as we receive your specific inquiry.

In case you might Women Tote Bags to interested in a long-term business relationship with our company,

we are the manufacture of Handbag in China.we have been in the field for 4 years.We Leather Belts give you the Handbag in lower price Men Shoulder Bags and higher quality.

I know you need this product,if you are interested in my products.please Wallet send email to me or call me.Or you can go to our web.

Maybe now you have regular Accessories business partner. if so，please leave my message in your email box，maybe someday it will be useful.
If you need the price to compare with it your partner Clutches give you,welcome!

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