I posted this in the feedback section but want it seen here to.

maybe css can be first to adapt to it.

Hi,

I have been thinking long and hard about a new idea for getting more pub active gameops and have come up with a way we can handle the issues of covering more in game time than ever before."Junior ops" for lack of a better name. I was thinking we could have these people apply to become an admin of their favourite server (with very limited rcon ie. changing maps, kicks, temp ban, and console talk for warning people).

You could make sub forums in the gameops forums for junior ops and the seinor ops could mentor them, the senior ops would take on more of a management role and be able to help the junior ops with any major stuff ie changes to there server structure and perm bans and what not.

I know this would take some setting up, passwording rcon with limited access to certain servers and keeping a log of the junior ops, but in turn you would gain a lot more on the job man power without much risk of any major damage, ie if a junior op went rogue he could only kick and change maps, would not be long before a seinor could remove him.
They still would have to apply but in the apply section have a spot for junior ops app that says what exact server you play on most and want rcon to. I have seen this model work very well in some very popular servers there is little to no abuse in them and a really happy community.

In closing there is much work that this idea will need but the benifits will be huge to the community, as it will have players who love their given server, helping it to grow and enjoy an abuse free server.

Don’t be fearful of change, the current model GA was setup by a human just like us so lets not jump into the cant’s or won’ts and just take the idea as maybe the future for GA and online gaming.

Points
* 2-3 junors ops per server
* A sub forum for junors ops in gameops section
* Pub active people only
* Tag that they wear in server so people can see their presence
* Limited rcon for given server
* Will help feedback from the community on a given server
* They can be the voice for there server and take a responsibilty over it
* Gameops will have a lot more free time to work on major infostructure
* Sort of like your local member for parliament but for games server :)
* If not active over a couple of weeks replace role (unless pre warned)
* Maybe we can come up with a better name than Junior ops :P if not it will do


Let’s start working on this idea till we get it right :)

p.s do not de rail the whole idea simply post a problem and we will think of the solution. or after you think of a problem try yourself to come up with a solution and post the problem with the solution for even better results :)

Cheers

heres an idea: if he junior op bans without proof. permanent ban from all GA servers. why you may ask? cause hes a tard and doesnt deserve to be an op.

"* Tag that they wear in server so people can see their presence"
NO JUST NO
the idea is to catch hackers/mic spammers red handed and ban them. not let them get away, they just go "oh noes an op, better turnz off my h4x"

why have an OP to change maps? just have a votemap system in place, majority rules. and this im sure wouldnt apply to single map only servers such as #13 and #14 office.

* If not active over a couple of weeks replace role (unless pre warned)
i see where your going. but this idea wont be implemented. why?
* Gameops will have a lot more free time to work on major infostructure
^ thats why. if gameops need to keep appointing people to take on this role, they'll not only need to take time to remove their steam ID from admin list, but also need to find a mature, non 12 year old squeeky kid to fill in the role.

* Will help feedback from the community on a given server
lolwut? what feedback? its a server for crying out loud, they can only do so much. not to mention ONE server.

All im saying is, we dont want too many chiefs running servers as there may be a conflict of interest which may result in less people playing the servers themselves because an admin doesnt like a particular map.

All you need is our current OPs, and http://www.gamearena.com/help/incident to report the tards abusing people, bad rates and hackers.

__________________________________________

Your idea is good in theory, however it simply will not work with how GA systems fit in together.

There are systems in place already for ordinary users to raise their concerns / reporting etc.

For abusive players there is the incident report system

For unban requests there is the unban request page

For suggestions / feedback there is the CSS forums here or The Arena chat.

Some responses to your points:
Tags: 90% of the time GameOps do not 'tag-up' because they wil never catch anyone out - people that were previously misbehaving stop, now this does sound like a good thing, but the point is, you shouldnt need to have one constantly in the server to stop people breaking the rules.

Junior: Anyone that is given any form of administrative access over public servers and the banning system MUST be at least 18 years of age.. There is no arguing this point - it is a requirement of Bigpond and GA Admins cannot change this.

Limited RCON: There is no such thing without some form of 3rd party plugin - which we dont like to implement due to them breaking lots and creating a huge amount of overhead. CSS RCON is either 'you have it' or 'you dont have it'

Feedback: Anyone with a suggestion can feel free to leave a thread here, you dont need to be 'promoted' within the community to make a suggestion.

Gameops working on major infrustucture: We dont. A GameOp's job is this: Moderate forums, moderate game servers they frequent, help manage any ladders they admin for, action incident reports and unban requests, help out on the arena client, and make minor server tweaks. Anything 'major' a job is logged and a (paid) GA Administrator does it. As the name suggests, a GameOp (Game Operator) only Operates a game ;)

The current system works just fine - its the motivation of the community that is the problem. If people want to be given GameOp status without going to the effort to demo + submit now, then there is no point in us giving them the status as they cannot show us the effort they will require when the time comes.

There are only one or two reports being lodged daily as it stands, so if people want to sit back and complain about the amount of hackers on the servers, thats fine - until the Incident Reports start flowing in, we wont be recuiting any new ops as noone can be bothered proving they are worthy!

Hope this clears things up a little.

---

Ok to clear some of the points up.

1. "Tags: 90% of the time GameOps do not 'tag-up' because they wil never catch anyone out - people that were previously misbehaving stop, now this does sound like a good thing, but the point is, you shouldnt need to have one constantly in the server to stop people breaking the rules."

I think that you will always have an endless supply of hackers/abusive players you will never win that war, but by having a strong (police) pressence people will simply be exposed to less of this happening. hence why police have strong pressences for public events and only go undercover to catch BIG time crims.

2. Junior: Anyone that is given any form of administrative access over public servers and the banning system MUST be at least 18 years of age.. There is no arguing this point - it is a requirement of Bigpond and GA Admins cannot change this.

I understand they have to sign the contract and need to be above 18 junior is simply the term for not full fledged gameop.

3.Limited RCON: There is no such thing without some form of 3rd party plugin - which we dont like to implement due to them breaking lots and creating a huge amount of overhead. CSS RCON is either 'you have it' or 'you dont have it'


This is surprizingly simply to implement and not rely a major hurdle, and by having say 5 gameOps with full powers managing 20 junior ops with very little powers actually makes for a safer systerm then having 15 full power gamops... less people with full abilitys the better and safer for rouges

4.Feedback: Anyone with a suggestion can feel free to leave a thread here, you dont need to be 'promoted' within the community to make a suggestion.

I understand that and they can still do this but if we have more on the front lines we simply can adhear to servers indervidually like on a given server might run better with lower time limmit like a assult map server.

5. Gameops working on major infrustucture: We dont. A GameOp's job is this: Moderate forums, moderate game servers they frequent, help manage any ladders they admin for, action incident reports and unban requests, help out on the arena client, and make minor server tweaks. Anything 'major' a job is logged and a (paid) GA Administrator does it. As the name suggests, a GameOp (Game Operator) only Operates a game ;)


And you will have more info on the servers than ever and less time dealing with small stuff.


6.The current system works just fine - its the motivation of the community that is the problem. If people want to be given GameOp status without going to the effort to demo + submit now, then there is no point in us giving them the status as they cannot show us the effort they will require when the time comes.


Now people show motivation in differnt ways each indervidual has there strengths and these ops would be mainly on the front line putting time in game and addressing abuse and cheats as they happen.


As a whole its not changing the old system cause its crap its changing to a more player freindly new age witch seems to be the direction online gaming is going...

I thinks its workable, but change scares many, and even if its a superior systerm we wont see change unless people lose fear of it.

Basically theres arguments for and againts and i bet when this current system was made it was simply the first way they did things so they stuck to it.

People made the first system and tweeked it to a point but a big change would be scary... but maybe for the better.

Its not that change scares me, I just know how GA works - alot more than you probably ever will.

1. It comes down to community participation - if people demo, people get banned, they tell their friends, and the behaviour gets better. If I'm on a server I always make a point of reminding people of the rules.

2. Fair enough

3. Not as simple on GA as you think, and no I cannot go into it due to an NDA I have signed.

4. Thats a good point, but still if someone wants a change, they need only post here and have their server buddies come and support them

5. Its our job to deal with the small stuff... what other info are you referring to?

6. Motivation regarding server behaviour involves demoing and submitting... what other actions could there possibly be?

There are better ways of dealing with the problems you have highlighted... Simply throwing more GameOps at the problem is not going to fix it! The issue has been raised countless times before.

Take it up with Admins - the people who will end up giving the go ahead (as said previously, GameOps dont make the changes).

Admins are here

---

I agree with Franky 100% on this, while your idea appears to work well its just like communism, as a theory it works greatl, but when put in place it just falls apart. Correct me if i'm wrong here styles but I believe the reason you're trying to introduce a system where we have "Junior Ops" is so that there are more active Ops on the servers to combat rule breakers. When I was younger I used to think that, simply because I thought the demo and submit/ incident report systems were a waste of time, I wanted the matter dealt with at that very moment and dealt with quickly, believe me, I know some of the frustration you've gone through. Now that I am older and wiser I have learnt differently. The fact of the matter is, demoing will only take you around half an hour to do and upload to the site, it may be annoying because its longer, but at least that way there is proof and there will be a better decision made on which course to take due to the extra thought involved and the cooldown period after the event.

What i'm trying to say is, there simply isn't enough time or resources available for us to fix every problem in our lives at one given time. Besides, after submitting that demo and the player in question has been punished for their wrongdoing, you can sit back, enjoy playing your favourite server(s) knowing that you've made it better for all the other friendly players who just want to get on with it and have a fun game without any annoying interruptions. I'm sure you'll agree that that's what its all about at the end of the day, strengthening the community with peace and harmony.

And you will have more info on the servers than ever and less time dealing with small stuff.

oh come on you didnt even read my post did you?

why have an OP to change maps? just have a votemap system in place, majority rules. and this im sure wouldnt apply to single map only servers such as #13 and #14 office.

* If not active over a couple of weeks replace role (unless pre warned)
i see where your going. but this idea wont be implemented. why?
* Gameops will have a lot more free time to work on major infostructure
^ thats why. if gameops need to keep appointing people to take on this role, they'll not only need to take time to remove their steam ID from admin list, but also need to find a mature, non 12 year old squeeky kid to fill in the role.

All im saying is, we dont want too many chiefs running servers as there may be a conflict of interest which may result in less people playing the servers themselves because an admin doesnt like a particular map.

All you need is our current OPs, and http://www.gamearena.com/help/incident to report the tards abusing people, bad rates and hackers.

THERE IS NO EXTRA TIME IF YOU IMPLEMENT THIS IDEA (in bold)
here in ur first post states:

You could make sub forums in the gameops forums for junior ops and the seinor ops could mentor them, the senior ops would take on more of a management role and be able to help the junior ops with any major stuff ie changes to there server structure and perm bans and what not.

I know this would take some setting up, passwording rcon with limited access to certain servers and keeping a log of the junior ops, but in turn you would gain a lot more on the job man power without much risk of any major damage, ie if a junior op went rogue he could only kick and change maps, would not be long before a seinor could remove him.
They still would have to apply but in the apply section have a spot for junior ops app that says what exact server you play on most and want rcon to.

this ALSO TAKES TIME.

When I was younger I used to think that, simply because I thought the demo and submit/ incident report systems were a waste of time, I wanted the matter dealt with at that very moment and dealt with quickly, believe me, I know some of the frustration you've gone through. Now that I am older and wiser I have learnt differently.

but the problem is like i said before conflicting interest, one may say hax, another says skill. when i first played source i was like WOAH must be hax, but as i played more often, found the obvious camping spots and pre-fired often i got better at my particular favorite map. thinking i was good i went on to clan wars and man did i get thrashed. All im saying is, unless you have experience in hard-core clan matches and can tell what a hack looks like, theres no way one will become an admin.

i mean c'mon, how the hell can u call wall hax when i heard the guy running? lol

__________________________________________

I've never competed in hard core clan matches... and I can call hax! :p

The General 'way-to-do-things' if there is a hacker on a server is this (for everyone's benefit):

1. User demos and uploads to the Incident Reporting System and notes the Report ID.

2. User jumps on COGS / The Arena and joins the CSSource channel. User says something along the lines of 'Hacker in X server, report ID X'

3. GameOps monitoring the channel will go and action the report, if its confirmed they are normally removed straight away.

---

It's great to see people actualy thinking on how to improve their community, rather than raging at it.

Points
* 2-3 junors ops per server

- Kind of like how we had referees for the ladder, so when the ladder is running properly, we will have this option in spirit.

* A sub forum for junors ops in gameops section

- Again the referees have access to their own forum.

* Pub active people only

- Well people do have to live their own lives when they purely volunteers, if you want people 100% active they need to be employed and paid to achieve this.

* Tag that they wear in server so people can see their presence

- Well my personal opinion is that I can more flies when they cannot see me and see my tag.

* Limited rcon for given server

- Not possible unless you install Mani or the like, this causes other issues with the whole system, which I could go on for pages about...

* Will help feedback from the community on a given server

- This is what the community should be doing anyway, if they could be bothered that is.

* They can be the voice for there server and take a responsibilty over it

- Again the comunity has this power, they just have to actually care enough to make the effort.

* Gameops will have a lot more free time to work on major infostructure

- We have limited power, it's the Administrators and the owners who sort this side out.

* Sort of like your local member for parliament but for games server :)

- Politicians ....... Pass

* If not active over a couple of weeks replace role (unless pre warned)

- See back to my statement on volunteers.

* Maybe we can come up with a better name than Junior ops :P if not it will do

- You are either worthy of full access, through maturity of age action and thought, or you are not.

Some of your ideas are already there, in spirit, you just need to look for them.

well franky all im saying is you need to have experience to know what a hax looks like :P

and obviously you have had that experience!

__________________________________________

Well you guys have good counter points and as always the current system will always seem the better option cause you are used to it and can see its benefits first hand.

But having said that ive seen this new system being used by more and more private servers and i must say it creates a community that is worlds above that of GA. i use GA so i dont get charged downloads. (before anyone flames me and says "play there then")

Now i can bring an intelligent counter to every negative you guys have brought up but maybe GA just isnt ready yet.

The big point you guys keep bringing up, is that its up to the comunnity to chip in and do there bit .... and while i agree i also think that's the major point your missing, this idea BUILDS THE BEST MOST PERSONAL COMMUNITY'S THAT CARE OUT OF ANY SYSTEM .

I still very much disagree with the hiding taggs i have NEVER run into a hack or abuse for more than 5 seconds in the servers that are using the idea i set forth. touch wood

when you have people in the server who love that given server and have always played there the last thing they want to do is piss in there own home.

i believe deeply its a better system as ive witnessed first hand. i suggest you guys pm me ill give you the ip's to the servers models that im referring to, you guys have a play yourself and see with you own eyes.

To the guy who said its like Communism... its nothing like it :) its more democratic than anything, and when you say it wont work ... well im afraid packed servers are saying otherwise and the people who want to muck up and be a total ass in a server go to GA cause more chance of getting away with it ... unfortunately that's the sad truth. they dont last 2 seconds in the servers im reffing to.

But thanks for the healthy debate i posted it in suggestions and no one replied least you guys are thinking on it not just ignoring it :)

Do the admins look at the suggestions ?

When I try and play on a server with my proper tag all that happens is people want to turn my game into a massive mIRC session and I end up not playing or monitoring the server, just chatting right in the middle of a game server.

Most players cannot be bothered to get into cogs, for all their reasons, to try and talk to the Ops there, or come to the forums and talk it out there.

I use my current spare time to work the forums and get to the Incident Reports, if the other Ops haven't beaten me to them already.... CSS Incident Reports don't go more than 2 days without some form of action from one of the Ops.

Having more Ops will not solve the base issue with the game, the base issue of the community not willing to self police and submit the reports with the good evidence.

Having more Ops with all that power is going to be dangerous, there have been plenty of instances where people with that RCON power have abused it, people you would have thought would not have done so, have in fct abused it. More people with more power will make for more problems been there and seen that.

I'm not adverse to change, it's just that when I have done what the community wanted, it has come back to haunt me when it failed to be support by even those that wanted it.

Remembering that what works somewhere else may not be practical here, especially given all the different ways GameArena does it's business behind the sceens that the average user does not see.

hmmm yer i must admit id feel pretty bad if you guys did try this change and it all just didnt work on a larger scale like GA.

Maybe its only ok for small private servers, but who knows but good food for though.

Maybe in time with other servers growing they can be the guni pigs and if it becomes clear that it works then you guys can re look at it.

thanks again for the responses guys.

Cheers

yep, unless those so-called successful 'communitys' run 10-20 servers per game per day run this idea smoothly without problems with gameops/junior ops then this change will not be neccessary.

and im assuming what major change takes place in CS:S will also need to be implemented in not only source, but CS1.6, call of duty series, battlefield series, team fortress 1 and 2, etc.

im pretty sure you'll have the odd junior op waving his ban stick around for no reason on that one 'successful' server. now times that by the number of gamearena public servers, times 2 or 3 in-experienced junior ops. thats huge! thus creating an unneccessary problem.

now i took the liberty of going into www.gamearena.com.au/help/incident and did the math. I WAS going to count every server for every game but lost count at 70 only barely half way. so say 140 servers times 2-3 junior ops = 260-420 junior ops. instead of say 5-10 gameops per their chosen game. dont forget some gameops admin more than one game as well thus reducing the number of gameops required to admin each game. As you can see, this idea would only work with a small community.

but this IS a good idea for a starting gaming community, and i think this was the first topic ive put a lot of thought into and i give you props for bringing it up. it was a good debate :)

__________________________________________

No prob dude thanks.

Now lets talk about how we can fix the government with there stupid web filter idea :P

hehe nar that debate is red hot on whirlpool im loving that debate to.

i think they're retarded and hes gonna get shot IRL by a nerd TBH!

__________________________________________

There's been some totally awesome points in this thread on how to improve how servers are managed and I'm sure they sound like they'd work in theory, but they probably wouldn't. Consider if you're willing to put this kind of effort into thinking of better ideas for the community to be run, why not put the effort into reporting people who are causing havoc in servers, breaking obvious rules and showing that you'd be a good GameOp.

If you're willing to do that for a game which has such a massive community you'll definitely be taken into consideration, and when you know how to apply.. you'll know. Don't let the post count fool you, I've been around for a long time, just tend not to post very frequently on these forums.

somone should post a guide with pictures on how to exactly to create demos + and provide the right info to submit to the gameops.
Srry if theres aleady a guide out on forums

somone should post a guide with pictures on how to exactly to create demos + and provide the right info to submit to the gameops.
Srry if theres aleady a guide out on forums

There's a good guide in the stickies on how to get the most out of submitting demos.

Submitting - http://www.gamearena.com.au/forums/counterstrikesource/thread.php/2885469

What to look for - http://www.gamearena.com.au/forums/counterstrikesource/thread.php/3679595

somone should post a guide with pictures on how to exactly to create demos + and provide the right info to submit to the gameops. Srry if theres aleady a guide out on forums

someone needs to read the stickies

and trillionare, he wasnt applying for gameop, he was pointing out ideas. obviously you didnt read the whole post properly.

__________________________________________